Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Welcome to Suite at the Table. Hosted by Jill Ryder, each episode brings you honest conversations with senior technology and data leaders about the choices, challenges and defining moments that shaped their journey.
Because every seat at the table has a story, this podcast is brought to you by Precision Sourcing.
[00:00:19] Speaker B: So today I'm joined by Tichal. Welcome to Suite at the Table. Thanks for being here.
So you've got an impressive career history. 20 years in senior roles in technology and transformation.
I think from chatting to you over time, we've known each other a little while. I'm impressed by not only the strategies, but the impact that you've had in organizations and kind of keen to get into that.
So thanks for being here.
[00:00:46] Speaker C: Thanks, Jill.
I think when we spoke about leadership and growth, your thoughts really resonated with me. So I'm really looking forward to this.
[00:00:55] Speaker B: Yeah. Cool.
So maybe let's kick off. Perhaps you can give us an insight into your career journey.
[00:01:03] Speaker C: I think I've been in the industry for almost 20 years now.
I have seen a lot in terms of growth and change in leadership, learned through a lot of setbacks and I believe the key is to keep going on.
Yeah, it's been a good journey, exciting journey. I've been to four continents in the last 10 years or so and everywhere.
[00:01:31] Speaker B: What continents have you been?
[00:01:32] Speaker C: I started in Asia, in India, then I was in North America for some time and then in Europe and then in Australia for the last 10 years.
[00:01:43] Speaker B: Excellent. Which out of those has been your favorite?
[00:01:47] Speaker C: I mean, we don't have the second guess. It's probably Australia lifestyle and so good for growing families.
[00:01:54] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. So when you started your career versus now, how did you, how did you imagine or where did you think you'd be at this stage in your life? And how's that different or the same?
[00:02:10] Speaker C: It has been a good, good journey, I would say.
I, when I graduated, I thought it will be very, very linear.
So you graduate, you get into a company, you start building yourself up.
But it's not that in reality.
And that's been the biggest surprise.
It's the non linear path that you take. The challenges you take up, the risks you take, the industries you change, geographies, you change.
And probably stepping out of your comfort zone, that is the most important thing for everyone to grow.
[00:02:48] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:02:48] Speaker C: And that has been a big surprise for me because I always thought careers are linear. You just be in a job and then you grow up and you start making money. Yeah, yeah. So it's, yeah, it rise up the ladder.
People have done that as well. I'VE got friends who probably have done 20 years in the same organization.
But the ones who have made a faster career trajectory and bigger impacts are ones who have taken risk and move sideways at times when required.
[00:03:18] Speaker B: So if we look at your history, where did it all start? What did you start? You started in India in technology.
What was your role there?
[00:03:26] Speaker C: Yeah, I started off as a developer, pretty much. A lot of people were doing that at that time.
I did that for three years and I am always intrigued by problem solving.
So I said, hey, there has to be bigger problems than just coding. So then that's where I just took a year off sabbatical and then did my Masters in Business Administration at Imperial in London.
[00:03:55] Speaker B: Oh, in London.
[00:03:56] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:03:57] Speaker B: How'd you find London?
[00:03:58] Speaker C: It's pretty good. It's pretty good. I think it's one of the better cities for education and lifestyle as well. Very multicultural as well.
[00:04:06] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:04:07] Speaker C: So that course was an eye opener for me.
There are bigger problems in the world. So we did marketing, finance, strategy, accounting, negotiations. We were talking about it.
[00:04:17] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:04:19] Speaker C: And that opened up the gates for me into consulting.
[00:04:22] Speaker B: Right.
[00:04:23] Speaker C: So I was in consulting for next 10 years or so, probably from 2010 to 2019.
[00:04:31] Speaker B: Okay. So fair amount of time. Did you enjoy that?
[00:04:34] Speaker C: Yeah, consulting is, I, I always say, even to my kids that consulting is one thing that everyone should do.
[00:04:39] Speaker B: Yeah. A gig of good, a good sort of basis gives you so many opportunities to experience different customers, different environments.
[00:04:49] Speaker C: Yes. And also the focus on being prepared and quality.
That's what consulting teaches you.
Once you have that quality and planning capabilities and problem solving, then you can take up bigger problems. So that's when I started doing industry roles in Australia and I've been doing industry roles for the last seven, eight years now.
[00:05:12] Speaker B: Yeah.
So what would you say was kind of your turning point from, you know, starting to kind of climb up, climb up the ladder where you start to see success. What, what was the turning point in your career?
Was it maybe when you moved from consultant to industry or.
[00:05:31] Speaker C: Yeah, I would not say turning point. As I said, it has been a bit, you know, not, not exactly linear. But I think that there have been a couple of realizations in my career. Right. One is very early on, as I said. Right. The focus on quality and being prepared. So I make it a point that every meeting still that I go to, I'm always prepared.
[00:05:54] Speaker B: Even internal meetings now.
[00:05:56] Speaker C: Yeah, internal meetings as well. I kind of played in my head what's going to happen in the meeting, who are the audiences? And that's one of the advice I got very early on that you have to be very quality focused.
And then the other thing is, which is again a recent advice, probably seven, eight years back, the difference between a leader and a manager.
So for a long time in my career I was probably still operating as a manager, which is, hey, what's the best way of doing things? Let's get this done and let's do it.
But then someone told me there was an MD who I used to work with and he said, hey, it's all about inverting the pyramid and focusing on being a leader. So what does a leader do differently from a manager?
You are aspiring people, you are building trust in them, you are letting them do their job.
And the most important thing is when required, you are just correcting their path and bringing it back them on track. So because you have done it in the past, right?
[00:07:05] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:07:05] Speaker C: So when I realized that that was like a switch going on in my head that, oh, this is. It is, it's not about, you know, actually doing things, it's about inspiring people to work with you, getting to a common goal.
And yeah, that, that, that has been a game changer for the last six, seven years for me.
[00:07:30] Speaker B: What was, what did you see as the impact when you kind of made that switch in your mind from kind of managing and doing everything to empowering people? I guess.
[00:07:41] Speaker C: So two things, right. The impact on me firstly is it's, it's difficult. Right. Like if someone who, who has always lived or delivered results, sometimes it becomes
[00:07:54] Speaker B: very difficult for you to shift from delivery to. Yeah. Taking a step back.
[00:07:58] Speaker C: Yeah. So taking a step back.
And I think the other big realization for me is you have to invest in people, you have to hire really good talent and that makes a job a bit easier. So. And again, this was a piece of advice I got in my last couple of jobs as well.
You are as good as your team.
[00:08:19] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:08:20] Speaker C: So sometimes you have to take difficult decisions as well. But don't make your team do the job for someone else.
They should be doing what they're doing. You should not be carrying the job of your team.
So, yeah, that has kind of added a bit more clarity in my head of, and better decision making of, hey, I can probably step away and let the team do it.
[00:08:48] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:08:49] Speaker C: And then I also believe in a bit of feedback from the team. So for the teams also, I keep on asking them for 360 degree feedback because what I want to make sure that the team trusts me and that trust is coming through in those days. So it's working pretty well.
[00:09:08] Speaker B: Yeah.
Have you ever had 360 feedback which you didn't like?
[00:09:14] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. Obviously you get feedback all the time.
So the best has been just go and talk to the person. It's usually around perception and that's again a big realization. In leadership roles you have to take feedback and also address it with the team in an open environment.
[00:09:37] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:09:38] Speaker C: So I do all that all the time. So whenever I get any feedback, good or bad, I have a follow up and then try to get a bit deeper into what's actually happening.
Kind of go over it.
[00:09:51] Speaker B: Yeah.
Is there just talking about that kind of empowering versus micromanaging? Do you think there's ever a place for micromanaging where it actually works?
[00:10:07] Speaker C: Not really. I think micromanaging doesn't help anyone.
But when teams are not performing you have to get closer.
You have to make the team a bit more accountable.
But I would not classify that as micromanaging. I would still say it's part of the normal goal setting process.
[00:10:30] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:10:31] Speaker C: So there are individuals who will who are motivated all the time to do well, so you can probably be a bit more relaxed with them. But then if there are non performers in the team then you have to be a bit closer. But I don't think micromanaging ever works.
[00:10:48] Speaker B: It's also like really draining, isn't it, to have to manage someone do their job but vicariously through them. That's quite intense.
[00:10:59] Speaker C: Yeah, it is, it is, it is both on who, who the assessor is and who's been assessed as well.
[00:11:04] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:11:05] Speaker C: So we have to do performance reviews and, and things in, in our careers. But.
But yeah, I would not go down the path of, you know, super micromanaging. You set goals and, and then you set a boundaries and say, hey, do it and come back.
[00:11:18] Speaker B: So yeah, yeah.
[00:11:19] Speaker C: So yeah.
Luckily I don't have to do that a lot because if you focus on hiring the right people, investing in them, building a culture of trust. Yeah, I think it all goes well.
[00:11:33] Speaker B: Yeah. I think from a leader's perspective as well, I've personally found this when you make that shift, which is kind of similar to what I was saying before about micromanaging, but when you always say about who's carrying the baby, if you're always carrying the baby for people, it's ineffective. It's also really draining for you versus if you can pass the baby. So pass whatever the problem is, empower them to solve the problem.
I think instinctively it feels weird at first because you just want to like what you were saying if you're in that delivery mode, you know, you can fix it quicker. But it's like allowing them to have the opportunity to fix it and make mistakes.
It's a win for them because they'll then have that opportunity to grow and step up.
And also then it becomes easier for you to kind of do more other things, doesn't it? And not get involved in, I suppose, the weeds of things.
[00:12:30] Speaker C: Yeah. I believe a big, big outcome of a good leader is building more leaders underneath you.
So how do you build more leaders who can take up those extra responsibilities? So I do that a lot. I always invest in who are the people who will probably stand up when I'm not around.
[00:12:50] Speaker B: Yeah, I think session planning is a really big thing, isn't it?
[00:12:53] Speaker C: It is, it is.
[00:12:54] Speaker B: And often kind of overlooked what, what kind of, what advice or what tips have you got maybe to share around that kind of point of succession planning?
[00:13:07] Speaker C: I think you, you have to identify the right people and probably without any of your biases which you might have been carrying from previous jobs. So it has to be very fact based.
[00:13:24] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:13:25] Speaker C: And you will find people who are motivated all the time in the organizations, but it has to be fair as well. So there are other people as well. So for example, if you're like four or five direct reports and then you said this, this person probably is my successor, then probably I would say the other three or four.
They should be comfortable and it should be a group decision.
[00:13:50] Speaker B: Yeah. Right.
[00:13:51] Speaker C: So I kind of do that and give everyone equal opportunities and then kind of see what is motivating them and then, and be very clear with them as well that this is my succession plan.
[00:14:03] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:14:04] Speaker C: So that they are motivated all the time and then people are okay with it. Right. Like they, where they are. And it all comes back to the normal goal setting process every year which, which I spend a lot of energy with my teams.
So they, they know what the vision is plus what their development goals are as well. Yeah.
[00:14:31] Speaker B: So it sounds like just being really open and communicating clearly is kind of key point.
Yeah, we, I have a consultant who works with us and he always challenges us about, around have a look at what you're doing now in your role and what can you give away?
Kind of sometimes counterintuitive because you want to hold on to stuff. But yeah, I found that a useful thing to think about.
Okay, so if we go back to your career journey, is there a point where you thought I've had enough, I want to give this up and just move to Byron or you know, like what we were talking before. Is there any, was there any point in your career ever where you're like, I can't do this anymore. I've had it.
[00:15:18] Speaker C: I wish, I wish I could move to Byron again. I was thinking about it.
I. No, never.
I'm that kind of motivated person. I have signed up this. So I never fit. They've been challenging times, don't get me wrong.
But that thought has never crossed my mind.
[00:15:36] Speaker B: That you wanted to give up, that
[00:15:37] Speaker C: you're gonna give up. Because if I give up, what, what else? Like if I have something else to go to. Right. Like so I think I, I don't know, I mentally, I've kind of built that power in my head that I don't know whether it comes from how I like what I did when I was a little. A lot. Very competitive in sports and everything.
[00:16:02] Speaker B: How were you?
[00:16:03] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:16:03] Speaker B: So you do sports wise a lot.
[00:16:06] Speaker C: A lot. So say I was.
When it goes back many years, I don't want to go. Yeah.
Like the, the best memories of my life. Right. Like with like teams and school. Sports and school.
[00:16:20] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:16:20] Speaker C: I'm a sports captain, school cricketer and then school school captain as well. Oh, wow. So.
So yeah, I think mentally, yeah. So I never think of giving it. I don't believe in like giving it away because you can plan better, you can call it planning better or you can say I will do this instead of this. It's not like just throwing in the towel. I never crossed that thought, never crossed my mind. There have been tough times where I've been thinking, hey, what, what is happening here with me? Why me? You know, but never like never ever. Just like, I'll go away.
[00:16:54] Speaker B: Yeah. What was, if you think back to a tough time, what was happening? What was going on?
[00:17:00] Speaker C: This was in 2018, 19, there was a personal situation like my wife went through some terrible surgeries and all of them were incidental to a point wherein the doctor said, hey, you got like few months to live.
And I had like two young kids at that time and I knew to the country as well. Right. So.
And to make it worse, I lost my job. So like I was made redundant. So. Okay, that is so that is a lot. Right. So you kind of start feeling what's happening here. Right.
So but I mean, luckily the. My wife, yeah. Everything turned out to be okay. It's a one in a billion chance, but everything turned out to be okay. The doctors were amazing over here in Australia.
[00:17:46] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:17:47] Speaker C: So that was set to set to rest and then Then I just went into a bit of self reflecting mode for a week. Yeah, I did a week.
[00:17:59] Speaker B: That's not long.
[00:18:00] Speaker C: Yeah, I did.
[00:18:01] Speaker B: What was going on.
[00:18:02] Speaker C: Yeah, I did a retreat.
[00:18:03] Speaker B: Did you?
[00:18:04] Speaker C: Yeah, for, for a week. And that just mentally made me so strong.
I came back, I had four job offers, all four different things. So I got, I had a consulting offer, I have project management offer, I have business analyst offer and I had head of E commerce offer.
So I said oh, so I've done it for 10, 15 years now and I can do it for the next 20 years.
So yeah, there were tough times but.
But yeah, I think that made me really, really headstrong and that was the time when probably was the toughest because.
[00:18:39] Speaker B: Sounds like a relative.
[00:18:40] Speaker C: As I was talking to you, you always think, oh there's a. Life is so beautiful, it's very linear, you'll go there. But all these things come from left, right and center.
[00:18:47] Speaker B: Life's not like that.
[00:18:49] Speaker C: So yeah, I'm kind of made it made me more resilient and more open to things and I also started appreciating that there sometimes a lot of personal thing happens with your people as well in your teams which you might not be aware of.
[00:19:05] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:19:05] Speaker C: And it's always, always really important to check how they are going.
So I always ask them. And you can sense it. Right? Like you can sense it with your experience. Something's not right here.
[00:19:16] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:19:17] Speaker C: So just take them in the corner and just check if you're okay.
And I've probably helped a lot of people in the last four or five years of navigating through tough times in their personal life if they ask me to share my insights.
But that also builds an extreme level of trust in the team that hey, someone who really trusts us if something goes wrong on our personal side of life as well. Right. There have been times wherein I've stepped in and said, you go off, I'll probably look after this for you for a couple of months.
So yeah, I think that was tough time, but it sounds really tough.
[00:20:01] Speaker B: It also sounds like it essentially made you a better leader because you're more insightful having experienced it yourself. And I do think, I mean life, bad things happen and when you experience that it gives you more empathy, doesn't it? And it does make you a better leader.
And the other thing I suppose is like even though people, you do that old cliche, you should keep work and personal life separate. But it's actually really quite impossible if you're unhappy at work, it flows on into your Personal life, and then the other way, if something's going on in your personal life flows into work. And that's just human nature, isn't it? You can't. You. You're not like a robot. You can separate as soon as you walk through that door.
[00:20:47] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, spot on. I mean, people might say, hey, it's easy to switch on, switch off.
And I read Steve Waugh's autobiography, out of your comfort zone, right. He says that he used to have this switch in his mind on and off when he was on the field. He'll go in this game mode on, and then he'll switch off.
So, yeah, he could do that. I sometimes try to do that as a theory, like, I'll go back to my home and then switch it off and shut the laptop.
But if you had a.
Not a good day at office, it plays on your head all the time. Yeah, it flies in, it flows in. So you have to take care of yourself and not think too much about it.
But as you said, it's very difficult either way. If you're not happy at home, you're not happy at work. If you're not happy at work, probably investing eight, nine hours. So you should be loving what you're doing and more importantly, you should be around with a set of people who are genuine and who trust you.
[00:21:51] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think life's too short. Like you say, you. You spend a lot of time at work, so it's important that, like you say with good people and you have good fun. I suppose as well, if you look back at your career to date over that 20 years, is there ever a time where you've taken a decision that was like a massive risk and it could have gone really wrong? What. Can you think back to the time when you did that? When's the time you've taken the biggest risk? Yeah.
[00:22:25] Speaker C: I think in. In. In hindsight, I always think I could have taken more risks, but the biggest risk was packing up bags and coming to Australia, probably with. With a. With a young family.
[00:22:38] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:22:39] Speaker C: 11 years back when you came to Australia. Yeah, because from the uk.
[00:22:44] Speaker B: Yes. Oh, from the uk.
[00:22:45] Speaker C: Yeah, from the uk. Right. And why I say that so is because I believe there's a triangle of your career. Right. Geography, role and industry.
At best, you can switch two at a time.
Most people do one at a time, but all of us dream like three at a time. So we want to move a geography. We want a better industry, we want a better role at a higher level. Right, so you took an offer I said, I want to take this risk.
And what happens is once you move geographies, you lose a lot of your network, you lose a lot of your references. And I've done it like four times now.
So there has to be that flexibility of, hey, I'll probably start a step lower, but then I'll catch up pretty fast.
So I think I took that risk in 2014, 15. I said, hey, I'm going to go to Australia because how old were your kids then?
My daughter was. My son was not born, my daughter was 4 years old.
So I could take that risk at that point of time.
[00:23:47] Speaker B: So still quite bold, though.
[00:23:48] Speaker C: And I was. I was having a really solid career at IBM, going through the ranks.
So I said, no, I'm gonna just go there and I'm going to do a sales job selling IT services in Australia.
[00:24:01] Speaker B: Oh, wow.
[00:24:02] Speaker C: So I did that for one year and that's why.
Pretty good, pretty intense traveling around Australia.
I think it was the best job because the team was really good. And then I got to see so much of Australia in a year.
I was on a flight to Brisbane, Adelaide, Perth every week and then every other week I would fly to New Zealand. So I was just on the plane continuously. So it's pretty good way to get into a country. Yeah, so, yeah, it was pretty good gig and just your first, you know, job when you get into geography.
[00:24:37] Speaker B: And did your wife and daughter come over at the same time?
[00:24:39] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:24:40] Speaker B: All right.
[00:24:40] Speaker C: So, yeah, yeah, so we all came together. So, yeah, so, yeah, it was, it was, it was a bit of a risk because I've seen people who do that, but then they kind of try for two, three years and then, yeah, it doesn't work out.
[00:24:55] Speaker B: Doesn't work out. Yeah, I suppose that's. It's actually the biggest thing that could go wrong. What would your B plan if it hadn't have worked out?
Go back to the uk?
[00:25:06] Speaker C: Yeah, probably. Probably go back to uk, India.
But as I said. Right. I, I always believe that you can you. Once you stick to it, what's most important in my career is if you know where you're going, if you get the clarity, it might take you two or three years more than probably what it should take, or sometimes it's quicker. But once you know what you're doing, you apparently get there. There's no one, one, one linear way. What's really, really important is just to have that clarity in your head of what you want.
[00:25:38] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:25:40] Speaker C: And I probably could say I still don't have it. People still don't have like what they want.
So that, that also kind of evolves slowly and then you manifest yourself and then you go there.
So. And I go back to the, you know, childhood as well. Like when I was growing up, I want to do, I want to go to the uni. I probably took a gap year, but I reached there right then I said, I'm going to do a postgraduate job, a postgraduate course at a good uni. Probably again took two years more, but then I got there. Yeah, I want to move into leadership.
Got there again, probably at the right time.
So once you start thinking what you want to do, you probably get there. It might take a bit longer.
[00:26:23] Speaker B: Yeah.
Have your, like, as you've gotten older and like life happens, have your ambitions and drivers changed at all or if they kind of remain the same, or how's that changed?
[00:26:39] Speaker C: I would say being ambitious is really good, but in the right way. So my ambition, I'm a very ambitious person. I say it up front and in a nice way.
[00:26:51] Speaker B: Yeah, I think you are ambitious. I've always kind of got that impression from you.
[00:26:55] Speaker C: Yeah, and that's, that's absolutely fine. It, like in terms of sometimes people say you don't need to be too ambitious. I probably disagree. I think if you don't, if you're not ambitious, you don't have that growth mindset. So for me, what's important is being ambitious is good, but you should have a very good understanding of it's not built on a weak foundation.
So you just can't say, like, I can't say, hey, I want to go to the moon. There is no foundation. You know, I'm not an astronaut, I have not done anything. So that's just daydreaming is not ambition. So ambition has to be grounded. And then the second part is, you know, how. What's your mindset? You know, are you constantly looking at improving things, better ways of doing things and having that mindset and probably a growth mindset.
So that drives me. You can call it a mindset or ambition, but for me, ambition is just, how can I do this better?
What's the best quality of this product or service?
[00:28:06] Speaker B: Have you noticed your ambition has changed, though, from say, when you were just starting out your career to as a 22 year old or 23 year old versus now?
[00:28:17] Speaker C: Yeah, definitely. If you ask any of my MBA mates, they will, they will think I was very materialistic.
I think I would say I want to buy this, I want to buy this when I do buy it. So, I mean, yeah, they still joke around, probably sitting somewhere. But yeah, I think for me that that ambition has not died down. It's become less materialistic. It's more about making an impact and balancing it with life.
Because after those incidences in my life, I feel like job is a part of what you do. It's inherently associated with what we do. But life is a lot, lot bigger than your careers. And then there are things which are so out of your control, you can't imagine that.
So for me, ambition is balancing all that and getting the best out of my capabilities where I can make an impact.
[00:29:15] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, that makes sense.
I suppose on the same theme then, what is. Is there something that, either personally or professionally that you've let go that's made you better or happier.
Or an approach or, you know what an ethos at work?
[00:29:45] Speaker C: As I said, that step up in leadership, letting go, that you, you need to be the manager and you need to do everything on your own, Deliver everything.
[00:29:57] Speaker B: Yeah. So it's hard, isn't it though? Because if you, especially in early career when you're stepping up from being very delivery focused, you inherently, like, that's you, you, you deliver. That's what you're, you're good at. And it's almost like stepping back and giving the reins to someone else.
That can be tricky, I think.
[00:30:19] Speaker C: Yeah, so that definitely has been like something which I probably try to let go and has made a big impact on me. So.
[00:30:29] Speaker B: Yeah, you do a lot. I think you've mentioned when we've put up in the past, empowering people that are coming up through the ranks. Tell me a bit more about what you've been doing on that front.
[00:30:45] Speaker C: So I believe. Yeah, again, people, as I said, like, if you tie everything what you've been speaking about, ambition, growth, leadership, I think I love working with people who are in that category as well. People who. Not probably, definitely ambitious, but people who don't, who are not satisfied with status quo, as in, like, hey, how can we make this thing better whenever we have the time? Right. I'm not saying do it now.
So I've been spending a lot of time with my teams and trying to identify who are those people who want to make an impact. If you don't want to challenge the status, so that's fine as well. So you are a good delivery operator and you want to do that. That's okay, right.
So, yeah, I focus a lot on people who are focused on growth and then can make a big impact in the organization of challenging how the ways are done and Then make it better in a nice way.
[00:31:44] Speaker B: And what kind of changes have you seen with these people? What's been the impact of.
Because you run programs, don't you? I think as well, with people that are kind of up and coming and trying to elevate them.
Is there any success stories that you think about?
[00:32:02] Speaker C: Yeah, all of them have. Like my teams, the feedback has been pretty good. They feel very supported. All of them. If I look back last 10 years or so, all of them have done incredibly well in their careers.
[00:32:15] Speaker B: Yeah. Right.
[00:32:16] Speaker C: So all of them have went on and achieved great things and probably are doing it in my current job as well.
So. Yeah, I feel very proud. Right. Like, people are kind of making good kind of impact in the organizations that they are.
So. Yeah, you're very, very proud of that.
[00:32:36] Speaker B: Yeah.
What piece of advice would you give someone who's looking to step up into kind of a senior leadership role? What. What's kind of your piece of advice you would offer them?
[00:32:49] Speaker C: Couple of things.
One is going back to that mindset again.
What you should have a growth mindset and willing to take on more accountability.
Stepping out of the comfort zone.
[00:33:05] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:33:06] Speaker C: And unless you do that, you don't get notice in the organizations. So that's probably number one.
And if you're a new leader, start thinking through how to be a leader.
And what does a leader actually mean? What kind of a leader are you? Are you a transformational leader? Are you a democratic leader?
Are you a micromanaging? I mean, that also works, right? Or you combine all different kind of leadership as required. Right?
[00:33:33] Speaker B: Yeah.
What, what. What's needed, what's required, but also what do you want to be known as?
[00:33:38] Speaker C: Yes, exactly. So think about that.
There's nothing right or wrong.
And. And probably the biggest piece of advice would be be yourself.
People will try to box nowadays.
[00:33:53] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:33:53] Speaker C: Hey, this leader has to look like this. He has to act, or he. She has to act like this.
Don't do that. You then lose your identity, your individuality. You're trying to do something which is not natural to you.
And definitely there is a leadership style. So you might do those courses or the tests that we do around leadership that will tell you, I've done that in the past. LSIs and bell bins and all of them. So that helps you understand yourself.
So invest a lot of time in investing. Invest a lot of time in understanding who you are and what you are. If you do that, then. Then it becomes a lot easier, and then probably you can communicate that with your teams as well. I'M this kind of a leader and I want to do that. So yeah, people appreciate that as well.
[00:34:42] Speaker B: Have you ever led in the past in a style that didn't suit you? You know, have you ever.
[00:34:52] Speaker C: Yes, I said at times you have to dial up your leadership style. It's so I'm a very transformational leader.
By that what I mean is I'm always looking for how can I make things better.
And always introspecting and not only with the teams but myself as well. How could I have done it better?
And probably a bit servant leadership and democratic leadership as well. But then at times when you have to take tough decisions in an organization, you have to dial up a bit of, you know, I would not call it micromanagement. I would say is just like more accountability and goal based focus on people who needs a bit of performance improvement.
[00:35:35] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:35:35] Speaker C: And that doesn't come naturally to me.
I am a genuinely good person in terms of who loves to have fun and assume that all my teams are doing that as well.
But if you come across a situation wherein there are people issues you have to dial up and I spend a lot of energy in learning that art.
[00:35:55] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:35:56] Speaker C: Which doesn't come naturally to me.
[00:35:58] Speaker B: How does it sit with you? Do you feel guilty doing it or like when.
If you've got to have those tough conversations, I guess first couple of times
[00:36:07] Speaker C: I did, I said what could I have done it? Because it's impacting someone's careers and lives and.
But then again, as leaders you have to take up those accountability.
And that has been a realization of the last three, four years. It's not personal, it's organization.
You are doing your job outside the job. You might be good friends with them.
But I've started to feel slightly less guilty as time has gone on. But I tried not to reach to that point, that inflicting point. You stopped that before. If we can, then there are times when you have to take that call and you have to take that call.
[00:36:48] Speaker B: Yeah, I think there's obviously like that human, human element which is part of leadership. But in my mind, because previously I have really, really struggled with delivering bad news. But then kind of the switch was where someone said, well, you're actually doing them a disservice if you're not communicating to them clearly and upfront because you know, you're just not, you know, you're not giving them the opportunity to improve and you're being selfish because you don't want to have that tough conversation because it's uncomfortable for you. So that was like really a light bulb moment for me. I think that that, that notion of by not having the conversation, you're actually being unfair to them.
[00:37:30] Speaker C: Yeah. And that's also the realization that in big, big corporate organizations, it's unlike running a small business. Right. If I'm running a shop with two people, I'm accountable for everything of how I'm making them feel. But if you are in a big organization, which is a scaled organization of 5,000 to 50,000 people, there are things which are outside even your control.
So you are doing a disservice if you don't tell them of what the situation is. This might not be the right organization for them. They might just excel at somewhere else.
So. Yeah, I totally agree with that.
It has to be said in a nice way and in a professional way.
[00:38:07] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:38:08] Speaker C: But you'd have to take those decisions and probably do those unnatural things to yourself. Yeah.
[00:38:14] Speaker B: So yeah, yeah, yeah.
If you could go back in time to your younger self, what would you tell your younger self to do differently?
[00:38:32] Speaker C: I would say we were talking this before, before the chart as well, around, you know, thinking things are riskier than they actually are.
So I would probably take more risks early on in my career because I think at that time you probably don't have those balancing needs that you have with the growing family and things. Right. So you can take more risks, which I can see is happening right now. If you look at AI and the whole startup culture that has kicked off in the last 10 years or so, young people are taking so many risks and I'm so, so proud of them of doing that.
So I could have done that.
But I think in hindsight everything is good.
[00:39:20] Speaker B: What stopped you from taking those risks at the time, do you think?
[00:39:25] Speaker C: I mean, a couple of things. One was obviously you're trying to build a career and I always thought that the career is very linear.
So yeah, you never think out of the box. Right. Like at that point when you had not too much of accountability with earning money or you know, looking after people, you can lock yourself in like, or work with like people which are not like high brand organizations. You can still work and build businesses.
So yeah, that entrepreneurial thing could have been a bit better, I guess.
But yeah, I think that probably would have been a reason.
And then again the opportunities and the whole external environment as well.
Startup at probably 15 years back was not that cool.
Now there's a wider acceptance of what startups are and there is a lot of support in terms of funding and visibility of what actually is I can see, like, high schoolers talking about startups and VCs and private equity. So I think just that knowledge probably was not there missing in me.
[00:40:40] Speaker B: Yeah. Yes. I guess it's what you're exposed to just naturally as well. And these days, when I look at my kids, they're doing. Yeah, like startup workshops and I mean, we. I never had that, but I'm a bit older than you.
All right, last question from me. You've had a shocker day.
What does Tasha do to, like, wind down and switch off? What do you do once you get back home?
[00:41:07] Speaker C: I'm very lucky in that sense. I've got so many things to look forward to when I have a shock idea. So first thing is just spend time with my kids. They just put you back in perspective of what the world is then. Otherwise, I'll probably pick up my call sticks and go and hit some balls at that driving range.
Or just take out my motorbike and just feel the fresh air in my face.
Ride it out.
Or probably the best thing I do all the time is just like 20 minutes of deep breathing and like meditation. I've been doing that for last 10, 15 years. Why is it so. That just clears up your mind. So. So, I mean, it's just focus on your breathing. It's such a. Such a simple thing to do, but such a powerful thing to do.
[00:41:58] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:41:58] Speaker C: And I've also read a book, don't believe in everything you think. Yeah, that's an exciting book. So I kind of make it a point that those thoughts that are coming in my head are just probably negative thoughts. And just to start, just stop. Yeah.
So if you put an effort on doing that, you get used to it.
[00:42:24] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:42:25] Speaker C: So, yeah, I think, yeah, there's a lot of. Lot of good society around me which helped me come out of that bad day.
[00:42:32] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:42:33] Speaker C: So, yeah, I think, yeah, it's all that support that you build over the years.
[00:42:40] Speaker B: Fantastic. Good stuff. Okay, well, that is a wrap. Thank you so much for coming in today. It's been brilliant having a chat to you. Tushar, excellent. Thanks so much.
[00:42:50] Speaker C: Thanks, Jill. And all the best for all these next ones as well.
[00:42:53] Speaker B: Thank you.
[00:42:54] Speaker C: Thank you.
