Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Welcome to Suite at the Table, hosted by Jill Ryder. Each episode brings you honest conversations with senior technology and data leaders about the choices, challenges and defining moments that shaped their journey.
Because every seat at the table has a story, this podcast is brought to you by Precision Sourcing Big.
[00:00:19] Speaker B: Welcome to you, Chris. Thank you so much for agreeing to join me here at Suite of the Table. It's lovely to see you. So you, you're the CIO of Uniting Age. Well, and I'm really keen to kind of understand a bit about your journey, how you got here, lessons learned, that type of thing. So maybe if we can get straight into it and you might like to just share about a little bit about your career journey from like when you first started off to, you know, being. Being at the role at CIO at United agewell.
[00:00:54] Speaker C: Yeah, thanks, Jill, and glad to be here and thank you for asking me to be here.
So I think I've had. It's funny, if you'd asked me 20 years ago where I'd be in 20 years, I wouldn't have said where I am today, working as the CIO for a not for profit aged care provider. But I actually started my career fairly early on in tech. I always knew I wanted to be a technology.
I just loved technology.
Um, much to my parents chagrin. Yeah, grew up on a farm, but definitely didn't want to be a farmer. Um, so I ended up. My parents encouraged me to actually follow my dream and, and so that ended up being technology. So I got straight and straight out of high school, actually I went straight to a job working at a local computer store and, and then a couple years later I had an opportunity to work at a local hospital.
Really enjoyed the culture and the people and knowing that you were doing something to help people, people and being part of that community was really resonated well with me and became sort of part of what motivated me.
And so I ended up spending.
I've actually worked for three different hospitals now over the course of about 20 years and have more recently obviously joined the age care family and become part of age care again. Similar theme that cultural. That helping people, giving back, being part of a community that looks after and cares for people. It's really been what's motivated me and, and something that I've really enjoyed.
[00:02:27] Speaker B: Yeah. Okay. Very different from farming then.
[00:02:31] Speaker C: Absolutely. Yes.
[00:02:32] Speaker B: Yeah. And so you said it what you wouldn't. You're not where you expected yourself to be when you first started out. So what, what's been kind of the, the biggest differences then?
[00:02:45] Speaker C: I think look, the management roles. I originally definitely thought I would be a technologist all my career. I just, that's how I started and, and I felt that that's how I would, how, what I would do. I just, I guess if you'd asked me back, you know, back through three or four years into my career and told me that I wouldn't be actually, I guess, hands on with the technology, I would have said, no, you're wrong, there's no way.
But no, certainly I, I had a, I became, had an opportunity, I guess to, to lead a service desk.
[00:03:22] Speaker B: Right, okay.
[00:03:22] Speaker C: That's five, four, five years into my career and took the look and I found, I really enjoyed it, really loved celebrating the success of the team and I found that my success was really tied to my team's success and that's what, what motivated me and got me going in the morning.
And so from there I started working my way through a career into, into management roles.
[00:03:46] Speaker B: Yeah. Okay, that's, that's interesting. Do you, do you kind of miss that technical aspect?
Being close to the technology? How, how do you, and how do you remain current? I suppose as well, you know, technology is ever changing, so there's kind of two questions there in one, but do you miss it? And, and how do you, do you remain relevant? I suppose so.
[00:04:05] Speaker C: I don't, I think I don't miss it because I'm still, I, I found a way to be connected to it. So I think that was something I had to do in my career is ensure that there's a point where, and a mentor said to me, once you've got to get to the point where you need to make a decision. Are you, are you in a leadership position or are you in a technology position? You really can't do both really well.
So I had to have that, that change and that mindset that, okay, I'm now in a leadership role and I need to let the team do the technology. And that was a really great piece of advice I got and something that I, that I valued because it didn't, it doesn't sound like a big thing, but when you're actually, when you're a technologist at heart and you're being asked to then be a leader.
[00:04:46] Speaker B: Yeah, it's given away.
[00:04:48] Speaker C: You're kind of, you've got to let that go. You've really got to let people and there's things that you would look especially early on in that you think, well, I know how to do that. I would do it a different way because you've Got to realize that that's, that's not being a leader, that's actually telling people what to do, that's dictating. And what you need to do is take a step back and say, are they still giving the outcome that you're looking for? Is it. Are you getting what the results that you, you're looking for? And if the answer is yes, then, then that's okay too. You've got to realize that you've got to let people do it their way and, and that's where. Yeah, taking that, that mindset shift was a really important thing for me to do in my career and I'm glad I did it. But, but you make the question how do I stay relevant? I think through the people around me are how I stay relevant and up to date. So I obviously read a lot. You can still be connected. I'm still at home. I still am very much the technical person. I'm still the person that my mum calls when she has an IT problem.
It's naturally just that thing that you never let it go in this find. But I get, I get the satisfaction out of from different achievements. You know, the team does some techniques and great things and they tell me about, they share that with me. I don't necessarily have the technical on the ground knowledge of how something might work or. But I understand the concepts and I can understand the benefits that they've achieved by succeeding or delivering that project.
[00:06:14] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I suppose it's similar.
Although I've gone back and forth a bit, but similar from starting off in recruitment, leading, you can see kind of quick fixes on how you would do things and might have a better outcome. But. And at first it's quite tempting not to go, oh, I'll just do it.
And that temptation to want to just do it. But I suppose by giving someone else the opportunity, it's kind of passing it on to give them that space to be able to do it and to grow and to learn.
Yeah, yeah.
Has there ever been a time where you have really wanted to kind of throw the towel in and walk away?
[00:06:55] Speaker C: Look, there was a time and it was, it was a really stressful time in my career. I was actually acting, I was filling in in a role and through.
Without getting into too much detail, the person that I was filling in for was originally meant to be a short term and then it became quite a long term and so it meant that I was sort of doing the job of myself and also that role and my role, I was the 2 IC at the time and look, I felt I also wanted the opportunity I was looking in my career to grow into that position. So that was a chief Information officer position back in the day.
[00:07:35] Speaker B: Yeah, right.
[00:07:37] Speaker C: And so I wanted to do the best I could. So I found myself probably over servicing the organization and over committing to. To working and really getting to a point where I was doing it was. I was suffering from a.
I guess a. A workload perspective. But it was myself. I was putting pressure on myself and my family started to suffer and when they started to suffer, I knew that there was a change had to be made. So I had to. Had to take a step back and I actually got external assistance. I got. I got some help through counseling and working through with a counselor to understand how to let go and to provide I guess to give myself an opportunity to let things go and relax. I was in a heightened state of all the time at heightened state of readiness and started affecting me sleep and all those types of things. So that was a moment in my life and career that I really had to get that help. And I really, at the time, I didn't realize I needed the help until I had the help. And now I tell everybody, please get help if you need it, because I do it all on your own. Sometimes you just need someone else's completely impartial view of your world and life and give you some home truths. And that's what they had to do for me and really. Well, it was something. I'm so glad I did it.
[00:08:54] Speaker B: Yeah. It's really hard, I think in the moment and that need to want to do a good job and it becomes all encompassing and it's. I think it's quite easily done if you have kind of that desire to be successful as well.
And then yeah, you, you want to overservice and then all of a sudden it, it becomes. Comes too much.
[00:09:19] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. Which actually is detrimental to everybody around you because at some point you can't sustain that. And then if you, if you fall in a heap, then everybody around you who relies on you to do what you do also suffers from that. And that's what I is that, is that sometimes taking a deep breath, stepping back was. Is actually better for everybody.
[00:09:39] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. And even though they kind of say, well you know, work and home should be separate, I think that's practically impossible for most people. I'm still kind of yet to see anyone, including myself, where that could apply easily. I don't see how you can separate them. If you're unhappy at home, you kind of inevitably flows into work with the best will in the world and vice versa.
[00:10:05] Speaker C: Yeah. And I think. And that's why I see a lot of our employee assistance programs in a lot of organizations are not just restricted to something related to work. They always talk about the fact that you, you know, if it's financial or if it's something at home because I think it's important that you have access to. To help.
I think it's rich. Well acknowledged that does affect, you know, you can't just leave it at the door.
[00:10:29] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
This might be the same answer. It might not. But Chris, what's been kind of career wise the toughest point in your career? Would it have been then or is there any other moments?
[00:10:45] Speaker C: It was probably just after that because that moment or I guess I had to get a bit of a moment of clarity. Um, and once I had spent some time working through that with a professional who understood what they. What I needed, I would then had to make a decision to say well, is what I need to change something. So if the organizer or the, the environment around me is not going to change and I'm going to. I'm going to need to change something. So I had to. We had to make decision as a family to I guess to sell up and move away to be able to take an opportunity outside of where I was because it was that we, we worked out. It really was a lot the environment I needed to go out of, get out of the environment at the time.
[00:11:30] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:11:30] Speaker C: Because there wasn't any significant change that environment was going to happen. So it was deter. I determined with help of. Of a professional that I needed to. Needed to move out of that environment to, to move forward. And I'm glad I did. It was hard because we picked up and moved away from friends and family and, and but it was a great. It was something that, you know, I had great support from my wife and we had a very young at a one year old at the time. So it was, it was a bit of a. Bit of a stressful time. But we just built a home. That was what we were thinking was our 25 year plan. We literally built a home and moved in about two years earlier where we. And we sort of had all these plans and then had to. To uproot and change them. But again, it was still the right thing to do for me and the family and not repaired at once.
[00:12:17] Speaker B: Yeah, that's a massive upheaval. And. And was it. Were you in quite a rural area and you went to a more built up area. Was it that sort of sea change kind of thing as well, or was it just different areas?
[00:12:30] Speaker C: Yes, it was, it was, it was moving through. Yeah. Moving from a slightly more rural area to a bit more of a metropolitan area. And then since then we've moved even. And I think that actually then gave us the confidence that. That actually this is not that hard to do. And so we've. Since then we've moved again, you know, and.
What? Different areas again, again and, and, but also again towards somewhere that. That would help both myself from a career perspective and giving. Having access to. To the roles that I.
[00:12:59] Speaker B: More opportunities.
[00:13:00] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. So to provide. But also it's. It's opened up opportunities for my. My two daughters who are now, you know, one's a. One's a teenager and the other one's not far off being a teenager.
[00:13:10] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. So do they prefer less rural, are they?
[00:13:15] Speaker C: Yes, yeah, yeah. Look, they like the opportunity. They love visiting and they love going back and seeing those sorts of areas and, you know, farms and things like that. But really, I think if you ask them, the, the reality is their, their friends and where they are is now, here where we are now, and. And they'd prefer it.
[00:13:31] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. It's still a bold move. Definitely.
So is there anything else that you like a risky decision in your career that could have gone wrong? That could have been one, obviously, but is there anything else where you made. You took quite a big risk and if it had gone wrong, it would have been pretty bad news.
[00:13:59] Speaker C: Yeah. So I suppose there was a technology decision that I actually led in a role at a hospital that I worked at.
And it was sort of one of those decisions where everybody had used a particular type of product, a particular brand. It was well known, really well respected. It was sort of one of these. You kind of, you know, there was always a bit of a joke. You didn't get fired if you put this product in. You know, it was kind of like that.
[00:14:24] Speaker B: It was.
[00:14:24] Speaker C: It was sort of the safe. It was the safe option. It's also become quite an expensive and, you know, it's hard. Expensive to maintain, expensive to have own option. And so I took the. At one point, I really took back a setback and said, well, what is the real risk of doing something different and, and making that change, making that leap and challenging the status quo to, I guess to challenge them to do better as well, and made the decision to completely change the technology stack and the solution. And look, it could have gone badly. There was no guarantees. We did as much testing and validation as we could, but also needed to get my team who were also very much ingrained in that old way of the traditional notions of the old. But I guess the traditional way, you know what, you know what they knew and got them and credit to them, they, they came along the journey with me and I wasn't going to do it if they couldn't, if they wouldn't back me from a technology point of view.
[00:15:30] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
[00:15:31] Speaker C: And we got them to gotten to think about it in a different way and they, they, they credited and they took it on and said let's give it a go. And so we did and I think that was one of the best things we did because we actually saved a fair bit of money but we actually got ended up with a, I think a better result, better product in the end because we worked really closely with the vendor and we also again we broke away, we broke free I guess of what it was kind of like a bit of a start of maybe we don't need to do it the traditional way all of the time just because that's what everybody else does.
[00:16:04] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. I suppose a different way of thinking probably followed on as well.
[00:16:11] Speaker C: And it does and it's willingness to
[00:16:13] Speaker B: try new things and change.
Do you generally find in with your teams people are kind of resistant to change like as a general thing or not in technology?
[00:16:26] Speaker C: I think not so much anymore.
I think people assume that technology people though are always willing to change and that's not always the case.
[00:16:34] Speaker B: Yeah, I would have thought that like, you know, what's the latest tech? Let me have a go at it.
[00:16:40] Speaker C: But no, I think there's, I think there's a, there's a, there's a perception that's the case and look, they like I think generally technologists and I speak for myself but we like the new shiny things. We like the latest, latest technology.
That's right. But, but at the same time where it's. When we're, we're needing to be responsible for it and ensure it's providing solid services and we're, we're at the end of the day we're the ones that are going to be called at 3 o' clock in the morning if it breaks and things they, it tends to be an aversion sometimes to that, that change and to challenge the, the status quo.
[00:17:14] Speaker B: Yeah, I suppose.
[00:17:16] Speaker C: Yeah. But I think you can also take some calculated risks and, and make some, some choices that maybe and you just don't try and change all at once. I think that's the, that's the trick is you need to. Need to be considerate of that risk appetite, but also do a risk and assessment. What's the worst that can happen? How do we mitigate those risks?
[00:17:35] Speaker B: And.
[00:17:35] Speaker C: And is it something that we are accepted. We can accept as a, as an organization?
[00:17:39] Speaker B: Yeah. So you're going in with your eyes wide open, essentially, and whether you're willing or not willing to take that risk.
[00:17:45] Speaker C: That's absolutely right.
[00:17:46] Speaker B: Yeah.
Cool. Okay, so what's the best piece of advice you've ever been given? And you may or may not have followed that piece of advice, but just keen to kind of hear what.
[00:17:59] Speaker C: The best piece of advice, and I've answered the same question the same way over a number of years, is surround yourself with people smarter than you.
[00:18:08] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:18:08] Speaker C: And that's something that I absolutely, firmly believe in.
I've seen the opposite. I've seen others do the opposite where they've maybe been a bit challenged or I guess, threatened by having people around you that may be smarter than you. So you're not the smartest person in the room. I. I always like to be. I like to think when I get into a room with my leadership team, I am not this. I'm definitely not the smartest person in the room. If not, I'm often the least smartest person in the room. And by that associate means I then have an opportunity to learn from those people. I have an opportunity all the time to be learning all the time that I'm always in awe of some of the work they do and the ideas that they have and the.
Their willingness to share the way that they do their ideas and the opportunities they bring to the table. I think to me, that's always served me really well. Make sure the smartest people in the room. Make sure that you strive to surround yourself with people that are better and smarter than you.
[00:19:12] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, you're gonna, as a leader, yield better results, I imagine, and it'll be much more fun.
Um, why do you think people, some. You mentioned some people don't. Don't want to do that. What. What do you think's going on for them?
[00:19:26] Speaker C: I. I. Look, I can't speak for them, but I guess my observation would be that there's potentially a threat to their role. I take the opposite. I like to hear if my team say to me, I want your job in a few years. That's awesome.
[00:19:41] Speaker B: That's.
[00:19:41] Speaker C: That tells me I've got a. I've got the right sort of people, I've got the right culture. I've got people that are open to telling me that and then I work with them and say, great, because I should be looking to work myself out of my role and give opportunities where, where opportunities come. It also means that I can have a holiday. I can, I can God forbid, have some sick leave or something and somebody. And I can, I can do that. So I, I got asked a question once some time back. I was on a holiday. I had actually a fairly significant holiday and someone said, oh, how's everything going while you're not there? And I said, A, I don't know because I'm not going to go checking in all the time, but B, I'm very comfortable and confident that everything's going fine because I've got a great team of people who know what they're doing. I shouldn't need to worry about that. I think that gives you a natural succession plan and having options for.
Have the opportunity to hand over the reins or hand responsibilities over to your team is really important as well.
[00:20:39] Speaker B: Yeah, I think if you've got that as a core value and I like that wording of like, natural succession plan where it, it naturally evolves over the time when you know that you're leading these, these people, then, yeah, it kind of all figures through. As opposed to, oh, I need someone to step in while I go away for three weeks. Who, who's. Yeah, that's. That's an awful feeling.
[00:21:02] Speaker C: I, I have had experiences where, where I've worked with people that they go on leave. But you can guarantee they'll, you'll get a. Be a phone call once a day to see how things are going.
[00:21:12] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:21:12] Speaker C: At that point I, I kind of, I feel saddened for them because it means that they feel that they can't let go. They're also. Yeah, they, they as a, as a person are struggling to let go and have that break which they really. You need to.
[00:21:26] Speaker B: It's not good for them either, is it?
[00:21:28] Speaker C: Not good, but also for the person that you've asked to step in because that, that they really don't feel like they're not given.
[00:21:35] Speaker B: Yeah, they're not given the space or the trust to, to be able to give it a go and do a good job at it.
[00:21:41] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
[00:21:43] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:21:43] Speaker C: You've got to be able to give the trust and then, and then, and then back that. So you trust the person and back them to do the job. And look, they need to be that they're there to make decisions. You've given them their, the authority to make those decisions, let them make the decisions. You may not play the same decision, but that doesn't mean it's wrong.
[00:21:58] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, very true.
Everyone talks about kind of balance.
What does that. And work life balance.
What does that look like for you day to day?
[00:22:14] Speaker C: So that's a really good question. And it's always something I think you reassess all of the time.
I think that's something I have learned is to continue to reassess. I have a concept with my team, I like to call it the bank. Know to me when people put in, they always put in. You know, very seldom do I work with people who are, who have an 8 hour day or 7.6 hour day or whatever it might be.
There's always give and take. And I, but I always say to them I see it as, that you're, you're depositing to a bank and there should be a bank of goodwill there. That means that I say to my team, I need you to withdraw from that bank. I'll remind them at times or someone will put in a leave request and I'll say I'm sorry, I'm declining that leave request not because you're not having the leave. It's because you're taking it from the bank and you're taking that day off. And I'm not expecting it to come off your leave balance because I owe you that and we or the organization owes you that. So having that concept that, that helps giving people a mindset and a concept. For me personally, I make sure that I have. So I've, I've made sure I've taken on a hobby or two.
Some things that, that, that allow me to clear my head and I also protect that time. I find I, it is something that I've worked with, even my, with my family on is protecting that time. I've got things that I like to go and do and make sure that I can do those things to, to have that separation, have that time and they understand that I need some of that time to wind down and be away from work or away from those, the pressures to make sure that you can continue to function when you need to.
[00:23:49] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
What, what hobbies have you taken up?
[00:23:53] Speaker C: So I actually do, I do pistol shooting. So I have a, a hobby. So yeah, so that's something that I find is what's great about it is that nobody wants to hear about my day when I go down to the range to shoot with a bunch of people from all walks of life.
And so you don't Talk about your work day, you talk about your hobby, and you talk about what you're doing. And then when you're actually doing it, you're focused, you're, you're breathing, you're, you're, you know, you're. That you're focusing on the techniques, the. What are you doing like that. So it's. Everything else takes a second, a back step. And, and you, when you think about it in the moment, well, you, you think that you realize after. And I'm sure there's lots of sports and hobbies where people will say the same thing, whether it be golf or whether it be, you know, something else. They'll say, yes, that's my time when I'm, I'm at peace or running or, or swimming or something. They might say, that's time. I'm not thinking about things. I'm just thinking about what I'm doing, my technique. Enjoying the feel of the water, for example, or something like that.
[00:24:51] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Same for me to create that space. Isn't it like where you, you can't take a phone call or whatever, which you wouldn't be able to shoot in range.
Did you start that when you were on the farm, though? You would have been.
[00:25:05] Speaker C: No, actually, it wasn't. What's in sock did, is it? No, no, I started that later on in life, actually.
[00:25:11] Speaker B: I thought the farming connection might have ignited that little passion.
So often as we get a little bit older, although I think I'm a bit older than you, Chris, but kind of that ambition and relationship with ambition changes. It might go up, it might go down.
What's that been like for you? And kind of where are you at now?
[00:25:38] Speaker C: Another great question. I, I think you're right. It does change.
It changes as you go. Because I think it changes for me, it's about when I hit a comfort level. I find that I've realized over the time. Over time, I like to be a bit uncomfortable.
And if I get too, too comfortable, that's when I start to feel like I get a bit itchy and need to do something else.
[00:26:05] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:26:05] Speaker C: And that doesn't necessarily mean it's a complete change in job or something. It could just be a change in, in responsibility or taking on another challenge or, you know, so there's, there's different ways of being.
I guess.
[00:26:19] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
[00:26:20] Speaker C: But I think of if that's the best way for me to explain it is that if I get too comfortable, I find I get.
[00:26:26] Speaker B: Not.
[00:26:26] Speaker C: Board's the wrong word because you don't. I don't think you get bored, but what you do is you find yourself
[00:26:31] Speaker B: a bit restless maybe. Yeah.
[00:26:33] Speaker C: And not necessarily challenging yourself as much as you. As you'd like to be. So you want to be challenged by some of those. I think we all like to have a little bit of excitement and challenge in our, in what we do.
[00:26:43] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:26:43] Speaker C: And that's something I sometimes find I have to generate myself or some of that might mean, you know, actually looking and saying, is there. What are the other, what are the other things that I could do? How can I, how can I challenge myself a little bit quicker? And it might be just something and accepting that maybe that won't work, but at least giving it a go. But also you need to have a team around you that's prepared to help you do that too. And thing I find is really helpful, you know, I've got a great leadership team at the moment who all accept that I might come up with an idea to try something a bit different or do something a little bit differently. And, and they themselves bring things to the table, which I like because I go, good, you're going to make me a bit uncomfortable.
[00:27:22] Speaker B: They're challenging you. Yeah. Yeah, that's. That's interesting actually. So, not, I suppose as you become more senior in any organization, you one, as you've said, you, you, you're the person that's got to go and find what your next challenge is going to be. But then, yeah, your team are also able to do that. So kind of two ways. But, but it's, it's not necessarily whoever your boss is that's going to come and say, oh, have you thought about doing this?
[00:27:51] Speaker C: No, I think I find your role
[00:27:53] Speaker B: like, sorry, it becomes more your role to do that.
[00:27:57] Speaker C: That's, that's. You're saying it's dead. Right. I was just about to say the same thing. It actually becomes, it's actually, I think the further you, you go in your career or up maybe in your career, the more it needs to come from you. And it's expected that it's going to come from you.
[00:28:13] Speaker B: Yeah, of course. The more senior you get.
[00:28:15] Speaker C: That's right. And so the ideas should be coming from you and your team, not waiting for someone to tell you what they think you should do next or view the next challenge. And look, sometimes the business or the organization or the external influences, you know, the government changes something and then in aged care we've had. The new legislation came into effect last year and that's thrown some challenges to us that we're working through trying to solve. How do we get better at this? How do we improve? How do we use the technology to make our staff more efficient and make more.
So that we can provide the. The best service we can to. To our clients?
[00:28:52] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah.
Cool. Okay. Now we are sort of running towards the end of the sesh. Let's just think.
I'm going to ask you this one, I reckon the one about staying effective at your level, if that's all right.
So what, what helps you stay effective at your level, Chris?
[00:29:22] Speaker C: Helps me stay effective, I think, for your relationships. Absolutely. So I think to be effective, you have to be seen, you have to be at the table, you have to be seen and heard, but also be one to listen and, and be part of the conversation. So I think it's easy to get dismissed and become irrelevant if you're not listening to what the business or the organization or your peers are telling you and, or, or wanting from you.
And it's something, I think, to. To stay relevant, you have to be seen as someone that people can come to with a challenge or a problem and, and that you will take it seriously. You'll. You'll. You'll think about what can I do?
Something that somebody said to me a few years back I really liked. They said, you should never, never worry about people coming to you and complaining because the reason they're coming to you is because they think you can do something about it. If they didn't think you could help them, you wouldn't.
They wouldn't tell you. Well, they wouldn't complain to you. So they said, well, what the complaint. You've got to turn that around and think of it actually as a. It's a cry for, hey, I think you can help me here. And I'm complaining because I want you to know that I've got a problem, and I'm hoping that maybe you can come up with a solution.
[00:30:41] Speaker B: Yeah, that's a great perspective.
[00:30:43] Speaker C: I love it.
[00:30:43] Speaker B: I'm gonna ask one more because I think this is good. So what piece of advice would you give to someone who's, like, aspiring to become a cio? Cio, Sorry, not cio.
[00:30:57] Speaker C: I think take your opportunities. They won't come to you all the time. Like sometimes, you know, they may come to you or opportunities come along, but I think you have to make those opportunities as well. You've got to position yourself so that you're ready when the opportunity comes along.
And that might mean sometimes having to, like I've done, and I'm sure plenty of others have Done. Actually uproot and move to some. Move somewhere else. Move where your opportunities are.
[00:31:27] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:31:27] Speaker C: Because you may be limited where you are specifically, or you may be limited in a. In a field that maybe you. There is. There's limited opportunities.
I've seen people wait and. And you wait and wait and wait and you actually see. You feel like they've waited the entire time and then they actually are often ones that don't get. They think the opportunity is theirs and they get absolutely destroyed when they actually don't become the natural choice because the organization decides to. They want to try out something different. They want to bring in some new, some fresh ideas and. And they don't see it as coming from internal. So I've seen that too, which is.
[00:32:06] Speaker B: Yeah, that would be heartbreaking if you've kind of hung out for years thinking that you're next in line and then it doesn't happen.
[00:32:14] Speaker C: So I had somebody, I left a role a number of years ago and that person, my. My boss at the time, who was awesome, worked, had a great relationship with them. They really, they struggled to understand why I wanted, why I left and what was.
I was talking to someone about this the other day who asked me a similar question and I said it was because they're still in that role today. And so if I was waiting for that role, my opportunity was at that was to move into that role. But that's still there and that's saying no shines of living. And that's great. Like, I have absolutely no problem with that. That's awesome. That's. They deserve that role. They are very good at what they do.
They're absolutely. That's awesome. Great.
[00:32:53] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:32:53] Speaker C: But if I was looking from an ambition point of view, I was looking to move into a role like that. I would still be today if I was still there, likely still didn't. That same waiting to happen. Yeah, that's not something that you just can't do that. Like you can't be waiting. You need to make it happen a little bit for yourself.
[00:33:11] Speaker B: Yeah. Okay. So look for the opportunity and make it happen and seize it. Don't just kind of sit and wait.
[00:33:23] Speaker C: That's. And look, another piece of really good advice I got from my mentor was I came straight out of school, so I didn't go to university. I didn't have any tertiary education.
About three or four years in, I was sitting with him and he said to me, he said, look, you're going to have to think about that at some point because there'll be a point in your career where if you want to keep moving up, there's an expectation that will be a tertiary qualification or certain industry qualifications. If you don't spend the time and effort and do that now, you're going to be. You're going to have all the experience necessary and probably the skills, but not the certification, not the, not the evidence from a, you know, education or industry certification that says that you have. And so that was another really great piece of advice he gave me. I went back as an adult and, and the great thing was I studied something that I, I would. I studied business management. At the time, I would not have done that if you had asked me coming straight out of high school, I would have gone straight to an IT course. I didn't do that. I actually did an it, believe it or not, I did an IT leadership course that was. I did a. I've recently done a graduate certificate in IT leadership and that was only, you know what, I was in my, my late 30s, early 40s when I started doing that. So, yeah, quite a. And I wouldn't, again, I wouldn't have done those things back then. I wouldn't have done the. I wouldn't have done the business management courses had I. Had I done it straight out of school. And so I am glad that I waited. It made it a bit challenging having family and family.
[00:34:53] Speaker B: Family and, and work. Yeah, but.
[00:34:56] Speaker C: Yeah, but it was well worth it. Um, and I, and I firmly believe that it's allowed me to help have that foundation for when I was, when the opportunities were available. I was able to. I was there.
[00:35:09] Speaker B: You're able to throw your hat in and have a good chance at getting the role. Yeah. And I do think as well, like, you know, if you like, I did. I went, I left school, went straight to uni, did a degree in languages, didn't really like, never use my French and German since. Since then. Um, I mean I had a great time and. And actually I did end up meeting my friend who then introduced me into recruitment. So that sort of got. Did get me my job. But I, I do always think like yourself, if I'd have done that kind of higher education, further education, when I was a bit older, I probably would have turned up to more lectures and also had a bit better idea of what I wanted to do.
[00:35:55] Speaker C: Yeah. I think your commitment, you're. You're at a different part and you've got different expectations out of higher education. I think when you once a little bit further on. I'm not saying everybody more mature, but I do feel like you could be more. More inclined to be very specific about what you want to get out of it. But also, you put. I feel like I put more effort.
[00:36:15] Speaker B: More effort. Yeah.
[00:36:17] Speaker C: And because it was. It was. I was choosing to do that over spending time with family or. Spending time.
[00:36:23] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:36:24] Speaker C: Having downtime. You sacrificed that time, so you had to make the most of it. So it was important to be doing something that was. That was really important and meaningful to me.
[00:36:33] Speaker B: You're going to get something from it. Yeah. Cool. Okay. That is a wrap. Thank you so much, Chris. Really appreciate. It's been great talking to you. Thank you.
[00:36:41] Speaker C: No problem. Thank you. I love the opportunity.
