Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Welcome to Suite at the Table, hosted by Jill Rider, each episode brings you honest conversations with senior technology and data leaders about the choices, challenges and defining moments that shaped their journey.
Because every seat at the table has a story, this podcast is brought to you by Precision Sourcing.
[00:00:19] Speaker B: Thank you for coming on in today. It's lovely to see you. Meet you, Alison.
I can see you've had, like, a really long and successful career, so I'm keen to, like, just jump straight into it and maybe you can. You could kind of share a bit of your story about where you started and along the way and what you're doing today.
[00:00:40] Speaker C: Yeah, happy to. And thanks for inviting me, I should say, as well.
So I started working in Oracle as a trainer back in.
In my mid-20s, I think, and loved it. So I got to travel a lot and I was the youngest in the team. So I taught all sorts of Oracle courses and various countries for a couple of years. Yeah. But it's also quite tiring, like travel and stuff.
So I tried to move with Oracle into consulting, which didn't really work, so then went into a smaller consultancy that specialized in Oracle. Okay. And that was really my pathway moving up through the ranks between here and the uk.
[00:01:19] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:01:20] Speaker C: For some years until I. Then I suppose it was after I had my children, I had four years out. It's quite difficult to have that long a break and then come back in. So you do go backwards a bit.
Then I went back in working construction and mining and I decided to move right away from Oracle because you do get pigeonholed quickly and no one could really see anything else on my resume. So I worked in a shared service function as the operations manager. So that gave me a much more rounded management experience. But good still that I had that background in software and tech and how to deal with vendors and kind of knew all the tricks. And I've been on both sides.
[00:01:59] Speaker B: Yeah, I've been on both sides. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:02:01] Speaker C: And then worked at Ventia, So a massive integration. So merger and acquisition onwards through to healthcare, private healthcare, where I ran a global transformation team that was probably really pivotal because there wasn't a team there at all. I grew it from the ground up and we were implementing various systems across four countries at the same time right the way into Covid. But just at the end of that sort of stint, I started to get the hunger for the A role that started with a C. And so after that, that was really where it set my sights.
[00:02:32] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:02:32] Speaker C: Came close to it a couple of times. And then as is so Often the way where I am now in Nova Systems. It landed on me because the previous year decided to move on and I just got a phone call offering me the role.
Providence, as they say.
[00:02:46] Speaker B: Yeah. Amazing. How has kind of is your career journey been what you thought it would be or how.
[00:02:54] Speaker C: Not at all.
[00:02:55] Speaker B: Right.
[00:02:55] Speaker C: Not in the slightest. Yeah. So I did French, German and international business finance at uni. Yeah.
[00:03:00] Speaker B: Good choices.
[00:03:01] Speaker C: And applied. I applied to the UN or something like that. That wasn't going to work. And then the Oracle pathway was. I saw a big red advert and he just grabbed. Literally, it just grabbed my eyes.
[00:03:13] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:03:13] Speaker C: Because it was so red and it stood out in the paper. Yeah. Imagine.
[00:03:17] Speaker B: I know.
[00:03:18] Speaker C: Oh, yeah. From the paper, the printed adverts. And I'm dating myself, so there wasn't that much thought in it really, to begin. That sort of developed along the way, and I got in a passion for leadership, for watching people grow and develop and being able to work with other women and helping them develop their confidence, which took me a long time as well. But, yeah, it's built over time. But, no, I definitely couldn't have foreseen ending up where I am now.
[00:03:44] Speaker B: Yeah. That's good.
If you kind of look back at your career, was there ever a point where you maybe we're like, oh, I've had enough of this. I want to just get out of it.
[00:03:57] Speaker C: There was a time where I'd acted as a CIO for. In two stints.
Sorry. Yeah. It was nine months long in two different stints. And then went for the role permanently. And that is the first and last time I'll ever take an acting role because I think it's like the world's longest interview. So you pour your heart and soul into it because you feel like you're being observed and you are.
[00:04:23] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:04:23] Speaker C: In effect, every single day.
[00:04:24] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:04:25] Speaker C: And then not to get the role. There was. There was a very clear moment when I went down to get my car, sat staring at the wall ahead of me. What am I doing?
[00:04:33] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:04:33] Speaker C: Why am I working so hard?
[00:04:35] Speaker B: Yeah. It must have been a kick in the teeth.
[00:04:37] Speaker C: Yeah, it really was. Massive kick in the teeth. And not that I backed myself from an ego perspective. I just tried so hard. And along the way, I'd lost sight of who I was and what my values were and what I was actually good at.
[00:04:50] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:04:50] Speaker C: And it wasn't until I rang a guy who I crossed paths with, you know, various years, who is also a cio, and I said to him, andrew, I cannot get this phrase. I'M not good enough out of my head. And I know sooner or the words out of my mouth than he jumped on it and went, you need to stop that and you need to stop it right now. You will get there.
Don't know when it will be, but you will get there. You just have to believe. But you need to stop that retro in your own head.
[00:05:15] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:05:15] Speaker C: And I think as females, we are terrible at doing that and undoing ourselves. But he was right, it did happen in the end, but that was a difficult trough to pull myself out of.
[00:05:26] Speaker B: Yeah. No, I can imagine that would be really hard and your confidence would have taken a knot. Do you agree retrospectively with the decision that that employer made?
[00:05:36] Speaker C: That is such a brilliant question.
Looking back now at the. It was a psychological assessment and I was given various challenges, you know, or scenarios to respond to. I did it too quickly.
[00:05:50] Speaker B: Right.
[00:05:51] Speaker C: And I missed out a couple of things and I tend to think really rapidly what I should have done was take the full time allocated to me.
[00:05:57] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:05:58] Speaker C: And just slow everything down a bit, which I would do naturally now. But I think at that point, after all that time, really hard work, doing government submissions and all sorts of things like that, everything was just a little frenetic.
[00:06:10] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:06:11] Speaker C: So whilst I don't maybe I almost agree with it, I just wish I'd been given a little bit more granular feedback to work with.
[00:06:20] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:06:20] Speaker C: Because what they said to me was, you think too fast. That was it.
[00:06:23] Speaker B: Yeah. Can't really do too much with that. No.
So what's your view on, like, the best route to take if we're talking to someone who wants to take that next step up to kind of C Suite cio?
Do you think it's easier to stay put, wait if you can see an opportunity and just wait your time out and then go for. Go for it once that opportunity comes up? Or do you think that it's actually a better option to consider, like, moving companies and applying for a role from the outside?
[00:07:06] Speaker C: I think moving and applying from the outside is always a little easier.
You're less of a known quantity. You get to call more of the shots, I think, on the way in.
So from that perspective, I think it's probably better, as always, that risk if you're internal. Actually, if I think back now, very few times I've seen anyone from Internal be promoted from, you know, just scoping below the C Suite to get to C Suite. I don't think I've ever seen it, really.
No. Maybe once. Yeah, maybe once.
[00:07:34] Speaker B: Why do you think that is because
[00:07:36] Speaker C: I think that you're a known quantity and there's this tendency to just want fresh blood and go outside.
[00:07:43] Speaker B: Like that shiny new thing.
[00:07:44] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:07:45] Speaker B: I think.
[00:07:45] Speaker C: And I think you're disadvantaged if. If you are that known quantity.
[00:07:48] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:07:49] Speaker C: And I also think just, you know, there's the usual things of building a big network. Get it. Find a mentor from somewhere who is at the level that you want to get to and focus on your communication style, how you communicate to C Suite versus anyone else. And then. And a board would be similar. Very, very different.
[00:08:06] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that's good tips.
If you look back on your career, is there a time when you took a massive risk and it could have gone horribly wrong but you still did it? What can you think of any time that you've done that?
[00:08:25] Speaker C: Moving here? Probably.
So to Australia.
[00:08:28] Speaker B: Yes. Okay.
[00:08:30] Speaker C: No network.
[00:08:31] Speaker B: Right.
[00:08:31] Speaker C: Knew a couple of people, but because. So I came back here with a two year old. Almost two year old.
[00:08:39] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:08:39] Speaker C: And 14 weeks pregnant with my second one.
[00:08:42] Speaker B: Yeah. Okay.
[00:08:43] Speaker C: And then took another year and a half off.
[00:08:45] Speaker B: Yep.
[00:08:46] Speaker C: And then was at my wit's end.
[00:08:48] Speaker B: Not.
[00:08:49] Speaker C: I mean there's that terrible guilt thing, isn't there? Not that I.
[00:08:52] Speaker B: Wrong guilt.
[00:08:52] Speaker C: Didn't want to be with my children.
I was unbuilt to work as well. I thrive on the whole thing, the whole package.
[00:08:59] Speaker B: Yeah. I think it's nice for a while to take that time off.
[00:09:02] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:09:03] Speaker B: But then.
[00:09:03] Speaker C: And then we'll start closing in a little bit.
[00:09:05] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:09:05] Speaker C: Husband was traveling a lot. Okay.
[00:09:07] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:09:08] Speaker C: Here without family, without a network, not many friends. Because until you're coming from a foreign country and I think there's often this misconception that Australia is just like the UK or dead easy. It isn't like the uk.
[00:09:20] Speaker B: No. No.
[00:09:22] Speaker C: Use the same language. But that's about the measure of it.
[00:09:25] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:09:26] Speaker C: Not much further than that.
[00:09:27] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:09:28] Speaker C: So it's not until the kids get really into school you start to friends.
[00:09:31] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:09:31] Speaker C: From school.
[00:09:32] Speaker B: Networks established. Yeah.
[00:09:34] Speaker C: So building a network here and sort of climbing here that really could. That could have gone very flat.
[00:09:40] Speaker B: How did you go about doing it then, knowing nobody.
[00:09:43] Speaker C: Really, really hard work.
[00:09:44] Speaker B: Yeah. Because LinkedIn wouldn't have been necessary.
[00:09:47] Speaker C: I think it was there. But not. Not as it is now.
[00:09:50] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:09:51] Speaker C: I do. And I'll give you a good example. So I joined working in Layton's, went there for a six week contract doing some testing.
[00:09:58] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:09:58] Speaker C: And obviously managed to impress somebody because I knew way more than I was doing then started to do a piece of work that I Didn't know at the time before other people had to go out and they couldn't do it.
[00:10:08] Speaker B: Yeah. Okay.
[00:10:09] Speaker C: And somehow I managed that.
[00:10:11] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:10:11] Speaker C: So it was just like increments. They're like, okay, then we'll give her a shot at something else and then something else.
[00:10:16] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:10:17] Speaker C: So I didn't have like a grand master plan, but I could see little chinks of okay.
[00:10:21] Speaker B: An opportunity.
[00:10:22] Speaker C: This. Right.
[00:10:23] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:10:23] Speaker C: Might lead to something else. Yeah.
[00:10:25] Speaker B: Excellent. So are you glad you kind of took that risk?
[00:10:29] Speaker C: Yes. Definitely. Don't regret it and go back.
[00:10:31] Speaker B: No, no, no. Burning desire to.
[00:10:34] Speaker C: Absolutely not.
[00:10:35] Speaker B: I don't think your kids would probably like it. Yeah. I don't think your kids have built for it. Mine wouldn't be. So definitely, like ruled that out.
Okay.
What is the best piece of advice that you've ever been given and you may or may not have followed it? So can you think about a piece of advice?
[00:10:57] Speaker C: It's another really good question.
I had an exec say to me, once you write PowerPoints, the way you talk
[00:11:08] Speaker B: and was that a.
A compliment or.
[00:11:11] Speaker C: It wasn't not a compliment, but it was a wake up call.
[00:11:14] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:11:15] Speaker C: To focus more on the message I was trying to communicate rather than a particular style that I had.
[00:11:21] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:11:21] Speaker C: And from there I did a. A board writing course.
[00:11:25] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:11:26] Speaker C: Learn. Like, you strip all the fluff out of everything that you're doing and you get your message to be a lot more clear and concise. Hits home faster.
[00:11:34] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:11:34] Speaker C: So whilst I was taken aback a bit and thought, but I'm really approachable and I get on my own with people, you know, if that's coming through, is that a problem? But that's not the point.
[00:11:42] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:11:43] Speaker C: The point is how quickly are you able to. And how compelling is your point, your argument, whatever it might be, your proposal that you're putting forward. So I kicked against that for a while, but I grudgingly accept now that.
[00:11:57] Speaker B: Yeah.
I think as you get a bit older, it's interesting to look back at pieces of advice. We were talking about something. I remember getting a new job and it was a big job when I was young and I was managing a fairly decent sized team and it was all across Europe and we were in a meeting and I had this habit of pulling my hair like this. And my boss said, listen, you've got to stop touching your hair and start contributing more to meetings.
I know what, you know, what you're doing, but it's just how you come across. And I hated it.
And I had my eyes on this German Counterpart.
But then with hindsight, it was like a really basic, valid tip that helped me, but at the time I didn't like it. So, yeah, everyone talks about balance. You've got family, got fur, babies.
How do you kind of strike that balance between working life, home life, personal lives?
[00:13:05] Speaker C: I've definitely lost that balance a few times. I'm pretty good at it now. You would think in my 50s, I've. I've learned it, so I am pretty good now. And it's not just balance. I will talk about what I do, but find it's not just balances in. I'm not working at 10 o' clock at night. It's a psychological balance.
[00:13:22] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
[00:13:23] Speaker C: And not taking on. I'm a huge empath, so I have to remember to have certain barriers between myself and my team and things they may be dealing with and going through and not take that on myself. You can be compassionate and fair and kind, but not to the point where
[00:13:39] Speaker B: you're actually taking on their problems and worrying about that. Yeah, yeah.
[00:13:43] Speaker C: And then years gone by. When I was younger, that was a problem.
So I think regulating that.
[00:13:48] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:13:49] Speaker C: Was really key for me.
[00:13:50] Speaker B: Very freeing. When you can get that in your.
[00:13:52] Speaker C: To a superpower rather than the thing that's exhausting you. So. And I do that now so I can understand people, but I can feel the point at which I'm. I don't need to take. Yeah, this.
[00:14:03] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:14:05] Speaker C: But then literally when I get home, I open the door and I'll get attacked by two Labradors, one of which is. He favors the four port greetings. So he's airborne usually, and that's a pretty good level of like. They're so happy to see you. Yeah. And I'm just dealing now with. The boys have finished school, so I used to be up at 5 o' clock in the morning making eggs and bacon because they were rowing kids out at Penrith in all weathers from 18 degrees to 44. Like, no exaggeration, feeding 40 kids and all of that, suddenly now they don't need me so much, so I've had to make that transition. So lots of time with friends, walks, time with the dogs.
[00:14:49] Speaker B: Mm.
[00:14:49] Speaker C: Sourdough. Which sounds ridiculous.
[00:14:51] Speaker B: Well, it's getting very popular, the old sourdough bacon.
[00:14:53] Speaker C: Yeah. So a girl and I from work is sharing recipes and comparing textures. It's actually. It's really scientific and there's lots of different stages to it, so it's.
[00:15:02] Speaker B: Don't you have to, like, have it sort of cooking for a day or like you have to take.
[00:15:08] Speaker C: You have to start like two or three days before you want to cook it. But it's really. You can get completely absorbed. So I find that relaxing. Anyway, so I'm thinking about work. I'm focused on. Is it fermenting?
[00:15:18] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:15:19] Speaker C: Is it risen high enough? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a good thing to take your mind off.
[00:15:22] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:15:22] Speaker C: I do lots of different things. Pilates.
[00:15:25] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:15:25] Speaker C: Get myself disciplined enough to do it. But yeah, I've got the balance much better now and I'm way happier for it.
[00:15:32] Speaker B: How have you found that transition as a working mom where obviously, yeah, it was full on with the kids and then suddenly they. You're kind of nest. Less needed at home. Is there not a temptation? I could see there would be a temptation like, oh, well, I can just work more now.
Or do you think kind of with maturity you've been able to kind of strike that balance better?
[00:16:03] Speaker C: The one thing I probably do now much more guilt free is travel.
Not overseas or it hasn't been so far, but a lot in interstate travel.
[00:16:12] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:16:13] Speaker C: Where I mean my husband will still whinge about it. And I get phone calls asking how to put the washing machine on and that kind of like which apartment does the.
[00:16:22] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:16:22] Speaker C: Go in that stuff. But yeah, that's. That's much easier now to do.
[00:16:27] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:16:27] Speaker C: Because I don't have to run around after them. Yeah. And it's more telling them to step up and help dad out because. Yeah. Some business. Right. So, yeah. I haven't filled all that time in with work. I definitely haven't done that.
And I think just thought of something before when you asked me the question.
If you want a team to have balance in their lives as well, they're looking to you.
[00:16:46] Speaker B: You've got a role model.
[00:16:47] Speaker C: So you. Yes. You need to model the way you want them to be able to look after themselves. Yeah. Themselves to be off. I mean, how many people now actually shut off when they're sick?
People say they're sick, but then you see them online. No, no. I'll just do a little bit. Comes a point when you need to just stop and get better.
[00:17:04] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:17:04] Speaker C: Think setting that example is really, really important.
[00:17:07] Speaker B: Yeah. A hundred percent. One hundred percent. And there's been a lot of document documented. So maybe it's just because of my age where women are really, I suppose, struggling in these ages to kind of create a new identity. Do you think your work identity has helped kind of make that a bit easier or.
[00:17:27] Speaker C: It did. So there was. I can't I'm not too sure how long it took, but there was a definite void. Feeling like a weird. Who am I feeling when the boys were not necessarily pulling away, but you know, they're both driving so they don't need us. Yeah.
Massively liberating.
[00:17:43] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:17:44] Speaker C: You spend your time. Anyone know where the car is? Yeah, it's got. What? Yeah, they go out more. One traveled for six weeks last year. That was hard.
[00:17:52] Speaker B: So you've got an insight into it because they both live at home at the moment.
[00:17:56] Speaker C: They do, yes.
[00:17:57] Speaker B: Yeah, they're.
[00:17:58] Speaker C: They're, you know, very free in what they do. They're out a lot. Yeah. Out with their friends or traveling, like I said.
[00:18:03] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:18:04] Speaker C: He was in Europe, so I spent a lot of time tracking flights, which I really shouldn't have done, and finding him in nightclubs in Ibiza. And I'm like, I'm Pretty sure it's 4:30 in the morning and. But bless him, if I texted him, he would call me, say hi.
So, yeah, there was a weird. There definitely was a weird period when I wasn't too sure who I was in that sense. So the work focus does help, but you very quickly realize that you need to fill that gap with something else.
[00:18:32] Speaker B: Yeah. Not just purely work.
[00:18:33] Speaker C: No. And sorry, interrupted you.
[00:18:35] Speaker B: No, no, no, go.
[00:18:36] Speaker C: It's also a transition that they don't need you for the same things they did before, but it changes. So they'll come to me for advice on things or, you know, it just takes a while for you to adjust. And they're adjusting as well.
[00:18:49] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:18:49] Speaker C: Was the thing that they say is middle aged women should not have teenagers. Like it's. There is a thing in that.
[00:18:55] Speaker B: But what does it call us? The sandwich generation? Is it the sandwich? Well, yeah, because they say many people have got kind of teenage teenagers full on. Yeah. And then they've got aging parents as well. Yes.
[00:19:11] Speaker C: And mine are in the uk, so that's the. Yeah, yeah.
[00:19:14] Speaker B: So you kind of like this dive in between the two. Two things. Yeah.
[00:19:19] Speaker C: But I'm through that phase now, which is good.
[00:19:22] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:19:22] Speaker C: And I understand now much better where my role is as a mum now.
[00:19:26] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:19:27] Speaker C: And it'll change again. I mean, you know, they both have girlfriends. One has had a girlfriend for over three years. So, you know, there'll come a day when that shifts.
[00:19:34] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:19:35] Speaker C: Markedly.
[00:19:36] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:19:36] Speaker C: You just, you have to adjust.
[00:19:38] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. No, that makes sense. Makes sense.
Has your relationship with ambition and your career shifted as you've, like throughout your career and as you, as you've got older.
[00:19:53] Speaker C: Definitely.
[00:19:53] Speaker B: How. How's that show?
[00:19:55] Speaker C: I was super driven before I got married and I had my. My boys.
Obviously, when I had my kids, that was the doctor that was looking after me in the uk.
[00:20:05] Speaker B: Sort of.
[00:20:06] Speaker C: Hang on. Prenatal. Yes, prenatal got me to stop work at 28 weeks pregnant.
[00:20:13] Speaker B: And I.
[00:20:13] Speaker C: There was nothing wrong with me. And I said, why do you want me to stop so early? So. Because this is going to hit you like a train, really. I was traveling the world, implementing all over the place, and I went from that to having this bundle of life that didn't fit a project plan and. Didn't fit.
[00:20:29] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:20:29] Speaker C: You know, there was no budget attached to it. I didn't know what was happening.
[00:20:32] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:20:33] Speaker C: So it was a really big shift.
[00:20:34] Speaker B: Had you planned to take like extended mat leave or.
[00:20:39] Speaker C: A lot of it was to do with moving countries. It kind of just felt like that.
[00:20:42] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:20:43] Speaker C: So that was a bit of a hiatus. Then I slowly became more driven again to a point where when I didn't get that role I mentioned before, that was. I was kind of at a real fever pitch then, like really driving to get to that sway position.
When that didn't happen, I finally came out the other end of that sort of it's almost grief process.
Then I sort of planed along for a bit. Not that I wasn't working hard, but I'd sort of got myself to the point where I reconciled and thought, okay, if this is me, then this is me. That's all right because it's not worth it otherwise.
[00:21:14] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:21:15] Speaker C: And then, lo and behold, it landed on me.
[00:21:17] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:21:19] Speaker C: And now for the moment, I am just really loving where I am. I'm comfortable in my own skin and I'm just enjoying learning and finding out all the different intricacies and challenges that come along with this sort of level of experience.
[00:21:32] Speaker B: Yeah.
I think that's incredible.
It's a good journey. It's a good story that you've got.
Do you know, do you have a view on what's next? Or you're not sure?
[00:21:45] Speaker C: Not yet, but that's okay. So that's fine.
[00:21:49] Speaker B: I also think it's okay to be happy and go, I'm good in this role for as long as I can see.
[00:21:56] Speaker C: And that's exactly how I feel at the moment. Which is actually a really. It's almost a relaxing feeling.
[00:22:02] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:22:03] Speaker C: Because I can just focus on where I am. I'm not looking, you know, to the door or to the next opportunity. I'm really enjoying my role and My team. Yeah. And everything that we do and deliver.
[00:22:14] Speaker B: Yeah. I think quite often when I speak to kind of C level there sometimes always in the future too much or maybe in the past too much and kind of the miss out on what's happening here and now. So I think that's really important to kind of just take the moment and enjoy it when it's going well.
[00:22:32] Speaker C: Exactly.
[00:22:33] Speaker B: Yeah.
Is there anything that you have let go of that's made you feel happier
[00:22:42] Speaker C: during your career to do with work?
[00:22:44] Speaker B: Yeah. Well you can post anything.
[00:22:49] Speaker C: I've done a lot of work with sort of lack of confidence. If I said to people now but sometimes that confidence they would just look at me like I had three heads and I laugh because do you know
[00:23:00] Speaker B: what everyone particularly women, particularly senior level women, most say the same thing.
[00:23:09] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:23:10] Speaker B: It's so interesting.
And you'd never know when you speak to them.
[00:23:13] Speaker C: We are very expert almost
[00:23:17] Speaker B: and it
[00:23:18] Speaker C: can trigger that in me as well. So I've done loads of work to do contain that and rationalize it when it raise its head and sort of let go of the Instantly going to the self doubt instantly going to the. What did I do wrong? Yeah. It's not always the case and I've done lots of presentations at various forums and the customers having like large exhibitions and things like that and I've looked around and look at people coming up on stage with me. They're absolutely terrified. I'm fine. That doesn't.
[00:23:47] Speaker B: You just say you're comfortable with presenting.
[00:23:50] Speaker C: Very comfortable. Put me in the middle of a networking event where I don't know many people.
[00:23:54] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:23:55] Speaker C: Very, very different story.
[00:23:56] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:23:57] Speaker C: Very very different story.
[00:23:58] Speaker B: That's interesting. Yeah.
What is it about the networking that you don't like not know.
[00:24:05] Speaker C: Not knowing what to small talk. I don't think sits well with me.
[00:24:08] Speaker B: No.
[00:24:09] Speaker C: Probably a bit of that.
And I was at something like that this morning so I just started talking to the girl next to me. She went oh thank goodness. I don't know anybody. I'll sit next to you. Yeah.
[00:24:18] Speaker B: You found your friend.
[00:24:19] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:24:19] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:24:20] Speaker C: She felt exactly the same and she was brave enough to say it.
[00:24:22] Speaker B: Would you say you're an introvert?
[00:24:24] Speaker C: No.
[00:24:25] Speaker B: Interesting.
[00:24:26] Speaker C: I've been described as an extroverted introvert.
[00:24:29] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:24:30] Speaker C: So I. I definitely have said in front of my kids the other day my social battery is empty. That. How do you know that term?
Excuse me one he didn't invent everything.
[00:24:39] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:24:40] Speaker C: And it's a well known term Eastern
[00:24:41] Speaker B: cycle of the things that they come out with now all the time. I have my 13 year old.
[00:24:47] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:24:48] Speaker B: I'm just TikTok. Oh.
[00:24:50] Speaker C: Yeah. It's not.
My friend can get to the point where I just need some time on my own and sometimes, you know, a couple of hours at home watching something, I don't know. Brit box. Usually.
[00:25:03] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:25:04] Speaker C: On TV and just talking to no one is. Is just great. But no, definitely not an introvert.
[00:25:09] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah.
I think I would class myself as an introvert. Extrovert. Introvert, Same thing. Yeah.
And it's funny like you say, as you get older you do become really good at hiding it.
[00:25:24] Speaker C: Yeah.
And I think that's okay as long as the distance, if this makes sense, the distance between how you feel on the inside and what you're projecting doesn't get too big. Yeah.
[00:25:35] Speaker B: You're not like leading a double life.
[00:25:36] Speaker C: No. Because I think when that gets too big, like in the middle of that is like uncertainty and fear and that's not that that can consume you a bit. So I think as long as you know why you're doing it and you have something in place to sort of look after yourself when you've managed to push through whatever that situation is. Yeah. Then you're okay.
[00:25:53] Speaker B: Yeah. What do you think make the best kind of CIOs, do you think an introvert?
Because sometimes you do. Well, quite often you get techie people that have come up the ranks and then find themselves in that kind of C level position.
Which do you think works best for the introvert extrovert? What's your thoughts on that?
[00:26:17] Speaker C: There's that traditional view, isn't there? We get cool sorts of things. Propeller heads or, you know, the geeks or the Star wars, which I am. But.
[00:26:28] Speaker B: Oh, you'd have liked the 4th. The 4th of May.
[00:26:30] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:26:31] Speaker B: The 4th birthday.
[00:26:32] Speaker C: We did have a lot of that on our chat.
I was laughing because so many of them jumped in. Then someone put up a picture of the Millennium Falcon in Lego which he's like, I'm trying not to buy this. It should be pretty easy. But. But no, apparently not. That was a temptation. So I think Expensive.
[00:26:49] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:26:49] Speaker C: If you're going to have to communicate with boards and vendors and an executive team and be taken seriously, win people over and influence. The introvert thing is not.
I won't say it won't work. It's not going to be easy.
[00:27:04] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:27:05] Speaker C: So I think you need a bit of personality. You need to be able to turn the techie language into something that anybody can understand because otherwise you look like one. You're showing off. Or two, you're incapable of breaking it down into language everyone can understand. And you're actually never going to get anything over the line. You'll never get support for anything. So I think a good CEO has a mix of technical now, but you don't need to know everything. That's what your team's for.
[00:27:29] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:27:30] Speaker C: If you're trying to scrabble away to know everything they know, then why do you even have them?
So I think that's key to remember. You don't have to be an expert in everything.
Nobody is. Even if they tell you that they are.
[00:27:41] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:27:42] Speaker C: And you need to be personable, open to new ideas and learning, and you need to be able to deal with people. And that's always easy.
[00:27:50] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah.
Sometimes I think not introverts, but I suppose people that are better at listening than talking do actually work really well.
But that's kind of what I've seen sometimes.
[00:28:07] Speaker C: That's the thing my husband commented about the other day. So when we first had lockdowns, he could hear me chattering away upstairs. And he did say to me one day, do you ever let anybody tour? And I'll be out at dinner and if I start to get excited on a topic, he might lean over and go, let somebody else give you a little bit. But the other day he said to me, you're quiet a lot more now. You let your. You let your guys talk.
[00:28:33] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:28:33] Speaker C: Listen a lot more.
[00:28:34] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:28:35] Speaker C: So did take that on board. And it's not because I wanted to command center stage. I literally would just get about something, excited about something.
[00:28:42] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:28:42] Speaker C: I've learned to temper that.
[00:28:44] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. You don't kind of want to be that.
[00:28:48] Speaker C: You suck the oxygen out the room otherwise.
[00:28:50] Speaker B: Yeah. Bit over talker. Yeah.
What men need is like that anyway.
Won't include that. Have you ever had to lead in a way that didn't feel natural? That wasn't like you? Yes. Tell me about that.
[00:29:05] Speaker C: So it was. I won't say where it was, but a role that I'd really loved and had a great team and I could feel at the time. Well, I thought at the time it was a once in a lifetime team. Once in a lifetime. Sorry. Team. I don't think it was now, but at the time it felt like that and we were kicking some serious goals.
Along comes Covid, and if you remember back. And it's surreal for all of us in the days when we didn't have a vaccine and nobody knew what was going to happen, that was. It was Scary for everybody.
And I can remember the day everything went into lockdown, being in my CrossFit gym.
That sounds really impressive. It's not at all. And everyone taking equipment home because they were just loaning it out. All the owners and the coaches being in tears because everyone was terrified.
And I was walking home and I got a phone call telling me the amount of money I had to save, and I was really confused. I said, well, where am I getting this from? And the answer that came back to me from COO at the time was, heads, Ali, it's coming from heads. And I said, are you telling me I need to carve out my team?
And he said, yes. So that was the Monday. By the Wednesday I'd modeled it, and then I had to enact it the following week. And HR had given me scripts but then weren't on the call. And so I fired just under half of my team through zoom with no one from HR there and in Covid as well. That's awful. And then a week later than that, they doubled in size and bought a huge company.
It was horrendous. So I felt. Every ounce of my integrity I felt was completely shredded. It was really hard to look any of my team that were left in the face.
[00:30:40] Speaker B: That'd be so hard because I didn't to manage that. Yeah. I didn't believe it's so hard.
[00:30:45] Speaker C: So that was. And I've. Since I. I meet with our organizational psychologist quite a lot, and she's super helpful in helping me understand that that discomfort is really strong because it goes against my values. Yeah. I can't sit in that situation, so I immediately start to look for something else.
So, yeah, that would have been the.
The most unpleasant, uncomfortable time for me as a leader. And as I said, really inauthentic. No integrity and not liking who I saw in the mirror.
[00:31:14] Speaker B: Yeah. It's good that you kind of went through that process of speaking to your.
Is it what? Your psychologist. Yeah.
[00:31:21] Speaker C: So I rang someone who I found on LinkedIn one day completely by chance, and the coincidence is ridiculous. He'd worked with the exec team a lot where I was working, so he knew them.
[00:31:32] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:31:32] Speaker C: And he knew the individual that had set all this in motion. So he just basically gave me a free counseling session and that sort of helped put me back together.
[00:31:41] Speaker B: Yeah. Because I think unless you've had that sort of conversation where you've gone through that thought process, you just kind of. Well, I would be just like, oh, I feel really bad about this, but I don't know why? And just carry that on for ages.
But once you've identified. Actually, no, this doesn't sit right with me. This is. And if the values are aligned.
Horrible. Yeah. And I do think that's the number one reason why a lot of people leave roles.
[00:32:05] Speaker C: I agree.
And there was something this. This the guy said to me, who was a coach also. He said, I know you feel really guilty about the people you've had to let go, especially now when there's so much uncertainty. But he said if every single one of them can go into the next role, whatever they do next, a slightly better version of themselves because of your management style, then you've done your job. You've done your job. You need to be proud of that. And bit by bit, I came to terms with it. But, yeah, that discomfort is something I feel acutely and very quickly. If it's there.
[00:32:37] Speaker B: Yeah. That's probably what makes you a good leader.
[00:32:39] Speaker C: I would hope so.
[00:32:41] Speaker B: That kind of as well. That sort of emotional intelligence. Yeah. Yeah. What is your. What's your favorite UK blue light side? I love that.
[00:32:51] Speaker C: Yeah. So good.
[00:32:52] Speaker B: What else be might say Good.
[00:32:56] Speaker C: Slow horses is amazing.
[00:32:58] Speaker B: I can't get into that.
[00:33:00] Speaker C: It took a while. My husband wouldn't let me give up, so.
[00:33:02] Speaker B: All right. Persisted on that one.
Are you watching that Friends and Neighbors one?
[00:33:07] Speaker C: No.
[00:33:08] Speaker B: That's good.
[00:33:09] Speaker C: Not. Not Brit Box, but the Pit. Obsessed with the Pit. Have you watched that? Is that got Noah Wylie from er?
[00:33:16] Speaker B: No, I've not watched it.
[00:33:17] Speaker C: Have you watched the Arlo still? Not really, no.
It's so good. And it's done in like real time, so each episode is an hour of their shift.
[00:33:25] Speaker B: Oh, really?
[00:33:26] Speaker C: So good. Set in another emergency room, but it's apparently the most realistic.
[00:33:30] Speaker B: The Pit.
[00:33:31] Speaker C: The Pit.
[00:33:31] Speaker B: Okay. I'll have to look.
[00:33:32] Speaker C: Most realistic medical drama ever made.
[00:33:34] Speaker B: Okay. Oh, I like a bit of a medical drama. Yeah.
[00:33:36] Speaker C: Hbo.
[00:33:37] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:33:37] Speaker C: It's very. If you're squeamish.
[00:33:39] Speaker B: No, no, I can deal with. Can deal with that. Okay. So outside of watching tv, we kind of touched on it. But is there anything else that you do to switch off if you've had a really crappy day?
[00:33:52] Speaker C: Play with my dogs a lot.
That's the really grounding thing.
[00:33:55] Speaker B: De Stressing. Yeah.
[00:33:57] Speaker C: And also just Jim mentioned earlier that they're so happy to see you.
[00:34:00] Speaker B: Yeah, they always are. It's unprecedented. Yeah. Not like some. The grunts that you get off your kids.
[00:34:05] Speaker C: Is it?
[00:34:06] Speaker B: They're always like really pleased and welcome you home. Yeah.
[00:34:10] Speaker C: And this is going to sound absolutely ridiculous. Oh, I can't believe I'm going to say it. I'll do a load of washing because it's. You know, I could be having a terrible day, but there's still the normal things of life that have to happen
[00:34:20] Speaker B: to come around to my house. And when you've had a bad. When you've had a bad day, don't interfere.
[00:34:26] Speaker C: I may treat myself to a small gin.
[00:34:28] Speaker B: Oh, that always helps as well.
[00:34:29] Speaker C: And I also mean my parents, like, my dad was quite senior in business, and so I'll just break things down with him. And he's still really good at giving advice.
[00:34:37] Speaker B: Giving advice. Oh, that's the best. Yeah. Parents are the best. Brilliant. Thank you so much. Been lovely to chat to you, Alison. Thank you.
[00:34:44] Speaker C: Thank you so much.
[00:34:45] Speaker B: Thank you.
